Ruby Payne has made a business out of tourning the country speaking to schools about the "culture of poverty". Many people love her and many people detest her. What is it about her theories that you would imagine would upset so many people?
I think there is a lot of truth to her observations. I think a lot of low income children are in direct conflict with adult authority figures, such as teachers. The conflict arises, not out of malice towards authority, but from misunderstandings. I've seen and heard things lately from students toward my co-teacher that I would have reacted very strongly to. Perhaps he was upset, but the kids never knew it and often apologized for their behavior without being prompted. I think, because he gives them space to make these social mistakes without judging them, he is helping them learn embrace the rules that have been imposed on them, at least, since they entered public education.
People are always disturbed by anyone who challenges the status quo so it is no surprise that some are upset by her speeches on poverty. I think her theories have a lot to do with the "Savage Inequalities" observation about wealthier areas having more funding. The idea of a "Culture of Poverty" also kind of reminds me of Outliers when he talks about what behaviors upper and middle class people demonstrate -versus their lower class counterparts. I think it is about money, but like the problem of schools it is about much more. If an upper class person were suddenly to lose their source of income, they probably wouldn't be on the streets. They have a safety net of education, associates, and everything else that has been instilled in them since their youth. Lower class people were not as fortunate to be raised with these advantages and cannot cope as easily.
I think that people tend to overreact when it comes to someone speaking their mind at times. Poverty is a topic that many people respond negatively to because they don't truly understand it. You can't truly put yourself into someones shoes to understand what it's like to be poor unless you've been the one owning those shoes, or lack thereof. I think the conflict will naturally arise between people that speak about this issue just because of the misconceptions and ignorance about the topic. Like Lee said, "wealthier areas have more funding." It boils down to the money issues and maybe even the jealousy of those that have it.
I think that a lot of it is misconceptions, and a lot of it is pure selfishness. I think that some people want to protect what they have, and one way of doing that is making sure that others don't have what they have. It seems that for their to be people with advantages, there is always going to have to be someone who is disadvantaged. Whether this is true or not, it is how people think. And the people who do have the good education and the money get protective and uncomfortable.
I thought her writing was very interesting. The section of the article I read discussed the structures that are in place, or sometimes not, in the head that are used to intake, sort, and store information. It could have just been the science or the psychology that I was interested in but I think what she was describing was really important. Some students come to school and have not had the necessary nurturing that is needed to develop effective input strategies. Our entire educational structure is set upon the idea that our students come to school possessing these abilities. She suggests that a change needs to me made in our structure to compensate for this very real lack of effective input, sort, and storing. I can see why some people would react very strongly to this idea. She is suggesting we alter the very structure education is built on and that the differences she points out are based on poverty. I think what she speaks about it a very real thing and we need to really consider what changes could be made to better help form and reinforce these structures of the mind.
In the first section I read a lot about hidden rules that people from generational poverty do not understand because they have never been exposed to them. An example of a hidden rule they live by would be laughing while being disciplined, or having the "world" be defined in local terms. I use these examples from her article because they were two of the most common examples I got to experience first hand at EC with my 7th grade classroom. During my first few weeks in my classroom I didn't understand what seemed to be their lack of respect if they were being disciplined. For example students would laugh or smile while I would try and have a serious conversation with them. I would be frustrated at the end of the day because I had never been in a classroom environment that acted in that manner. After my first couple of weeks I realized that they reacted in this manner because it's all they have ever known to do.
In conclusion, if you do not have the exposure to the different hidden rules it is easy to get frustrated at first, but as teachers it is our job to understand where our students are coming from, set high expectations for them, encourage them, and let them learn about these "hidden rules" so they have the opportunity to be successful.
Reason's people might "detest" her theories are understandable. Her theories are pact with facts and are one's people can generally agree with. However, I do see how people might feel she is blaming the upper and middle class for the lower classes educational problems. There's an old saying..."A person can only touch something as far as they can reach"...I don't believe that to be true.....but I do know that the upper and middle class want their children to have as many opportunities as they can...they just have the means to make that happen.
I feel like I'm missing something on this one. I cannot understand what it is about her ideas that would truly upset people. I didn't agree with everything she wrote, but that is far from detestment. I guess this is just a sensitive issue for some. People will always find something with which to be upset. It could be that her ideas of discipline go against what they were taught and maybe how they were treated. Some might be turned off by her idea that midddle-class methods of interacting are what are required for success in today's society. All in all, I can't say for sure.
I think the idea of generational poverty is interesting. Payned deemed a family living in poverty for 2 generations as having generational poverty. I often wonder why the students I'm teaching act the way the do, and I usually imagine that someone has treated them this way at home. Imagine receiving the same treatment from your grandparents, only reinforcing this behavior. Kids are pretty much brainwashed by the time they start school. It is such an immense challenge to attempt to change behavior that is reinforced in this way. Should we even be trying? Who is the upper and middle class to decide what's right and wrong? I'm not sure what the answers are.
I read part two of the the article and found it very interesting. The science behind it was really interesting, how we store information or not store the information properly. Her ideas I think are wonderful, but it also really bothers me how forceful she is. She is proposing that we teach her way and yes I think her way would really benefit students. I just really hate how she pushes her ideas down your throat. --Jenn V.
I also read part two of the article. When she talks about mediation and how a teacher can teach a perfect lesson, but if the student doesnt have the structures in place the lesson may be lost it reminded me of what we learned last semester about connecting ideas. She gives some great strategies for making connections in students minds. I didnt see anything that was detesting, but I think our section was more about strategies.
Erin makes a great point about the hidden rules of wealth. Part of the problem, and I would say as big a problem as the actual lack of money, is the lack of knowledge. It's like the old adage about teaching a man to fish feeds him for a lifetime (versus just giving him the fish which only feeds him for a day). Too often I think all we are doing is "giving people fish" when they need a more viable and long term solution. I think giving them temporary aid is fine for a while, but at some point the less fortunate need to understand the circumstances and decisions which lead out of the 'culture of poverty' and into a more successful life.
Perhaps with our new presidential administration, there will be a lot of new changes in our school systems. We need a complete overhaul to really change how things work in our system.
I read the section about working with students from poverty. I didn't really anything in that section that would be offensive. It is all pretty much common sense. I think that it is smart to teach all kids how to survive in our school systems by following the hidden rules and knowing how to negotiate and react in certain situations, especially discipline situations.
I have to agree with Amanda. I don't detest Ruby Payne, but I also have not had a chance to read all four parts of her articles. I do think that she stereotypes poverty stricken people in some instances. She makes a blanket statement that people of poverty are unable to make appropriate decisions regarding hidden rules because they have not been taught how to respond appropriately. I know many students that are very well behaved with impeccable manners that are from lower class homes. I think it's the blanket statements that could get her into trouble.
I agree, I know we have all been around students who live in poverty. Many times people categorize lower class students as those who have disciplinary problems or no manners, but many of the students we have dealt with are very polite. Christine makes a good point that Ruby's "blanket statements" could cause people to disagree with her. I think she makes some good points, but also makes some questionable assumptions.
Perhaps people detest her because she is trying to change a 'culture'. I would be really upset if someone demanded that I change mine or do things and make decisions that will move me away from my 'culture'. I don't really know though. I was just trying to come up with a good cause of detest. Because if people really do hate her I would really like to know exactly why. As many of you also have said, I just can't think of any thing worth being like this lady is crazy and her ideas are crazy because from what I read about mediation and forming structures in the brain is all makes really good sense.
In response to Christy’s statement: Yes some kids do have this unfortunate negative pre-existing habits, that may or may not be their fault. I am in full agreement with the Behaviorist’s on this one...The children still have their own decisions to make, even though it may be harder for some....regardless of class status/income/etc, everyone still has that one thing in common....we have a choice. Of course it is an immense challenge to change their habits, but it is our job as teachers to help kids realize that they do have a choice (not necessarily to change their habits....but to show the pro’s and con’s of both sides), regardless of who makes the decisions where, it always comes down to the individual teachers that make a difference. A teacher that simply goes with the flow of the lesson plan will rarely make a difference, but the teacher that concentrates on each students needs, and caters the lesson to each person, no matter what culture (impoverished or other) that student will leave the class knowing that they have a choice. -J.G.
I think there is a lot of truth to her observations. I think a lot of low income children are in direct conflict with adult authority figures, such as teachers. The conflict arises, not out of malice towards authority, but from misunderstandings. I've seen and heard things lately from students toward my co-teacher that I would have reacted very strongly to. Perhaps he was upset, but the kids never knew it and often apologized for their behavior without being prompted. I think, because he gives them space to make these social mistakes without judging them, he is helping them learn embrace the rules that have been imposed on them, at least, since they entered public education.
ReplyDeletePeople are always disturbed by anyone who challenges the status quo so it is no surprise that some are upset by her speeches on poverty. I think her theories have a lot to do with the "Savage Inequalities" observation about wealthier areas having more funding. The idea of a "Culture of Poverty" also kind of reminds me of Outliers when he talks about what behaviors upper and middle class people demonstrate -versus their lower class counterparts. I think it is about money, but like the problem of schools it is about much more.
ReplyDeleteIf an upper class person were suddenly to lose their source of income, they probably wouldn't be on the streets. They have a safety net of education, associates, and everything else that has been instilled in them since their youth. Lower class people were not as fortunate to be raised with these advantages and cannot cope as easily.
I think that people tend to overreact when it comes to someone speaking their mind at times. Poverty is a topic that many people respond negatively to because they don't truly understand it. You can't truly put yourself into someones shoes to understand what it's like to be poor unless you've been the one owning those shoes, or lack thereof. I think the conflict will naturally arise between people that speak about this issue just because of the misconceptions and ignorance about the topic. Like Lee said, "wealthier areas have more funding." It boils down to the money issues and maybe even the jealousy of those that have it.
ReplyDeleteI think that a lot of it is misconceptions, and a lot of it is pure selfishness. I think that some people want to protect what they have, and one way of doing that is making sure that others don't have what they have. It seems that for their to be people with advantages, there is always going to have to be someone who is disadvantaged. Whether this is true or not, it is how people think. And the people who do have the good education and the money get protective and uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI thought her writing was very interesting. The section of the article I read discussed the structures that are in place, or sometimes not, in the head that are used to intake, sort, and store information. It could have just been the science or the psychology that I was interested in but I think what she was describing was really important. Some students come to school and have not had the necessary nurturing that is needed to develop effective input strategies. Our entire educational structure is set upon the idea that our students come to school possessing these abilities. She suggests that a change needs to me made in our structure to compensate for this very real lack of effective input, sort, and storing.
ReplyDeleteI can see why some people would react very strongly to this idea. She is suggesting we alter the very structure education is built on and that the differences she points out are based on poverty. I think what she speaks about it a very real thing and we need to really consider what changes could be made to better help form and reinforce these structures of the mind.
In the first section I read a lot about hidden rules that people from generational poverty do not understand because they have never been exposed to them. An example of a hidden rule they live by would be laughing while being disciplined, or having the "world" be defined in local terms. I use these examples from her article because they were two of the most common examples I got to experience first hand at EC with my 7th grade classroom. During my first few weeks in my classroom I didn't understand what seemed to be their lack of respect if they were being disciplined. For example students would laugh or smile while I would try and have a serious conversation with them. I would be frustrated at the end of the day because I had never been in a classroom environment that acted in that manner. After my first couple of weeks I realized that they reacted in this manner because it's all they have ever known to do.
ReplyDeleteIn conclusion, if you do not have the exposure to the different hidden rules it is easy to get frustrated at first, but as teachers it is our job to understand where our students are coming from, set high expectations for them, encourage them, and let them learn about these "hidden rules" so they have the opportunity to be successful.
Reason's people might "detest" her theories are understandable. Her theories are pact with facts and are one's people can generally agree with. However, I do see how people might feel she is blaming the upper and middle class for the lower classes educational problems. There's an old saying..."A person can only touch something as far as they can reach"...I don't believe that to be true.....but I do know that the upper and middle class want their children to have as many opportunities as they can...they just have the means to make that happen.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I'm missing something on this one. I cannot understand what it is about her ideas that would truly upset people. I didn't agree with everything she wrote, but that is far from detestment. I guess this is just a sensitive issue for some. People will always find something with which to be upset. It could be that her ideas of discipline go against what they were taught and maybe how they were treated. Some might be turned off by her idea that midddle-class methods of interacting are what are required for success in today's society. All in all, I can't say for sure.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea of generational poverty is interesting. Payned deemed a family living in poverty for 2 generations as having generational poverty. I often wonder why the students I'm teaching act the way the do, and I usually imagine that someone has treated them this way at home. Imagine receiving the same treatment from your grandparents, only reinforcing this behavior. Kids are pretty much brainwashed by the time they start school. It is such an immense challenge to attempt to change behavior that is reinforced in this way. Should we even be trying? Who is the upper and middle class to decide what's right and wrong? I'm not sure what the answers are.
ReplyDeleteI read part two of the the article and found it very interesting. The science behind it was really interesting, how we store information or not store the information properly. Her ideas I think are wonderful, but it also really bothers me how forceful she is. She is proposing that we teach her way and yes I think her way would really benefit students. I just really hate how she pushes her ideas down your throat.
ReplyDelete--Jenn V.
I also read part two of the article. When she talks about mediation and how a teacher can teach a perfect lesson, but if the student doesnt have the structures in place the lesson may be lost it reminded me of what we learned last semester about connecting ideas. She gives some great strategies for making connections in students minds. I didnt see anything that was detesting, but I think our section was more about strategies.
ReplyDeleteErin makes a great point about the hidden rules of wealth. Part of the problem, and I would say as big a problem as the actual lack of money, is the lack of knowledge. It's like the old adage about teaching a man to fish feeds him for a lifetime (versus just giving him the fish which only feeds him for a day). Too often I think all we are doing is "giving people fish" when they need a more viable and long term solution. I think giving them temporary aid is fine for a while, but at some point the less fortunate need to understand the circumstances and decisions which lead out of the 'culture of poverty' and into a more successful life.
ReplyDeletePerhaps with our new presidential administration, there will be a lot of new changes in our school systems. We need a complete overhaul to really change how things work in our system.
ReplyDeleteI read the section about working with students from poverty. I didn't really anything in that section that would be offensive. It is all pretty much common sense. I think that it is smart to teach all kids how to survive in our school systems by following the hidden rules and knowing how to negotiate and react in certain situations, especially discipline situations.
I have to agree with Amanda. I don't detest Ruby Payne, but I also have not had a chance to read all four parts of her articles. I do think that she stereotypes poverty stricken people in some instances. She makes a blanket statement that people of poverty are unable to make appropriate decisions regarding hidden rules because they have not been taught how to respond appropriately. I know many students that are very well behaved with impeccable manners that are from lower class homes. I think it's the blanket statements that could get her into trouble.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I know we have all been around students who live in poverty. Many times people categorize lower class students as those who have disciplinary problems or no manners, but many of the students we have dealt with are very polite. Christine makes a good point that Ruby's "blanket statements" could cause people to disagree with her. I think she makes some good points, but also makes some questionable assumptions.
ReplyDeletePerhaps people detest her because she is trying to change a 'culture'. I would be really upset if someone demanded that I change mine or do things and make decisions that will move me away from my 'culture'. I don't really know though. I was just trying to come up with a good cause of detest. Because if people really do hate her I would really like to know exactly why. As many of you also have said, I just can't think of any thing worth being like this lady is crazy and her ideas are crazy because from what I read about mediation and forming structures in the brain is all makes really good sense.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Christy’s statement: Yes some kids do have this unfortunate negative pre-existing habits, that may or may not be their fault. I am in full agreement with the Behaviorist’s on this one...The children still have their own decisions to make, even though it may be harder for some....regardless of class status/income/etc, everyone still has that one thing in common....we have a choice. Of course it is an immense challenge to change their habits, but it is our job as teachers to help kids realize that they do have a choice (not necessarily to change their habits....but to show the pro’s and con’s of both sides), regardless of who makes the decisions where, it always comes down to the individual teachers that make a difference. A teacher that simply goes with the flow of the lesson plan will rarely make a difference, but the teacher that concentrates on each students needs, and caters the lesson to each person, no matter what culture (impoverished or other) that student will leave the class knowing that they have a choice. -J.G.
ReplyDelete